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Mick Doherty <doherm>
Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:12 -0400
I'd like to direct this question specifically to the people in
class who have not read _Neuromancer_ before this week. (I noted
in class that abouth alf of you had done so, and some of you multiple
times) ...
Generally, what are your impressions of the novel? Think about
it both in terms of content and writing style. What was the reading
experience like, perhaps compared/contrasted to Card's _EG_?
Specifically, what charater -- if any -- did you identify with
while you were reading? I noticed in class last week that people
seemed anxious to identify a character with whom they identified
-- Valentine and Ender, usually. Is that the case here?
Finally -- this is to everyone -- Gibson is fond of saying (as
Oscar Wilde once did) "Life imitates art." In fact,
I've seen interviews with scientists at the NASA/Ames VR Labs
who've said they've read Gibson and use the technology in his
books as "goals" to shoot for. Any response to that
approach to VR research and development?
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Leareth <leareth@rpi.edu>
Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:59 -0400
> Generally, what are your impressions of the novel? Think about
it was a harder read than ender's game, and to me personally,
not as interesting. my mind kept flitting about as i read so i
doubt i got as much as i should have from the novel.
i found the end a bit confusing as well.. could someone explain
the TA people a little better? what exactly were they pushing
for/striving to become? a hive like entity? why did neuromancer
seem to fear joining with
wintermute?
> Specifically, what charater -- if any -- did you identify with
> while you were reading? I noticed in class last week that
people
case. i could relate to some of his thoughts, more specifically
what wintermute diagnosed him/analyzed him as.
> seemed anxious to identify a character with whom they identified --
> Valentine and Ender, usually. Is that the case here?
i didn't particulary identify with anyone in ender's game.
some interesting references found in my music...
from my psykosonik cd:
"teknojihad"
a boot in the face the dream that fills your night decades later
it seems george orwell might be right your dead polemics have
sent millions to their graves despite your armies still we'll
never be your slaves goodbye goodbye goodbye goodbye goodbye
[refrain]
teknojihad electronic holy war
teknojihad burn the system to the core
teknojihad hear the angry Voice of God
shoot them once now we unleash
teknojihad
servitude is in the mind a death in life
don't be confused by terms of left or right
statism is statism by any name the same
apathy is suicide and we will bear the blame
goodbye goodbye goodbye goodbye goodbye
[refrain]
huge beserk rebel warthig error
zeroboys unleash domestic terror
jack it in and burn the data
violence a religion they can relate to
so let them hear this and let them fear this
don't forget that power always comes
through the barrel of a loaded gun
[refrain]
and a quick part from
"Shock on the wire"
...flip the switch jack it in
feel the matrix burn within
sensations shooting up your spine
take it over the danger line
you're lukewarm you're getting warmer now
you're getting warmer now you're getting hot
you touch fire the neurological ride
you're moving further inside you're getting...
### http://www.rpi.edu/~hallm4 #####
######## leareth@rpi.edu #####
#### ### ######
######## #######
###### when i left you, i was but the learner, #### ###
##### now i am the master... ########
### Star Wars:ANH #####
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Dennis Payne <dulsi@identical.stu.rpi.edu>
Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:46 -0400
> Generally, what are your impressions of the novel? Think about
> it both in terms of content and writing style. What was the
> reading experience like, perhaps compared/contrasted to Card's
> _EG_?
I think Etienne described it best when he said it was like a western.
Don't get me wrong Neuromancer says lot about what could be and
stuff, but it's done subtely(sp?) while EG beats you over the
head with it. It's harder to read because of the language used
then EG.
> Specifically, what charater -- if any -- did you identify with
> while you were reading?
None. Although I share a trait or two with some of them they are
vastly different from me. The same with the character's from EG.
Actually while sitting here trying to answer your question on
life and art, I think I probably identify with Moly the most.
She's not a slave to pleasure like Case, does her job as best
she can without much questioning, and keep herself bottled up.
> Any response to that approach to VR research and development?
Why don't we check hits to misses? With the shear size of art's
domain their bound to have a partical thought here and there.
There is no reason why we shouldn't take advantage of it.
Dennis Payne
dulsi@identical.stu.rpi.edu
payned@rpi.edu
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Daniel M. Cohen <cohend3>
Sun, 15 Sep 1996 21:16:58 -0400
>Generally, what are your impressions of the novel? Think about
it both in terms of content and writing style. What was the
reading experience like, perhaps compared/contrasted to Card's
_EG_?
Specifically, what charater -- if any -- did you identify with
while you were reading? I noticed in class last week that people
seemed anxious to identify a character with whom they identified --
Valentine and Ender, usually. Is that the case here?
Its most definitely a hard book to read. I got used to some of
the lingo Gibson uses but that was after several hours of rereading
the same page(s). I had to get a ton of help from my roommate
as well. It took sometime to figure out what was going on. Whether
something was a flashback, in CyberSpace , or actually happening.
I indetify myself with WinterMute. I can understand why an AI
would want to commit Suicide. Who would want to survive without
a purpose? I sure as hell wouldn't. And If someone had forced
me to stay alive, I would have done whatever I could to die. I
guess Im just weird for identifying myself with an AI. I cant
talk anymore about this now. Talk to you guys Later
Rat in the Hat <gentrj>
Sun, 15 Sep 1996 21:34 -0400
> Specifically, what charater -- in any -- did you identify with
> while you were reading?
Well, I don't meet mick's standard of being a first-time reader
of this tale, but I've always identified the closest to Case.
For future note, I never really felt a connection w/ anyone in
Count Zero, but there was a bit more in MLO ... not as strong
as w/ Case, however. For some reason, I could envision myself
in a similar situation - as distasteful as it may seem.
Rat in the Hat <gentrj>
Sun, 15 Sep 1996 21:35 -0400
> I can understand why an AI would want to commit Suicide.
Ummm ... who said that 'mute committed suicide? Just wait till
we get to Mona Lisa Overdrive. ;)
Ride this loa ...
Baron Samdedi
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Daniel M. Cohen <cohend3>
Sun, 15 Sep 1996 21:48 -0400
> Ummm ... who said that 'mute committed suicide? Just wait till we
> get to Mona Lisa Overdrive. ;)
>
> Ride this loa ...
> Baron Samdedi
Oops, I forgot to mention that I still havent gotten all the way through the book yet.. Im on page 201. I should be done with it by class tommorow. Maybe my comment was a little premature.
lavalj@rpi.edu (Jean-Etienne LaVallee)
Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:21:33 GMT
Heyas,
>>Specifically, what charater -- if any -- did you identify with
>>while you were reading? I noticed in class last week that people
>>seemed anxious to identify a character with whom they identified --
>>Valentine and Ender, usually. Is that the case here?
I too don't fit the criterion set forth by Mick, but what the hell...
I identifies the most with Case too. His sense of being used and
just sort of getting caught up in the flow of a crazy situation
is something I've felt before. Also, I've experienced a physical
imparement which has kept me from doing domething I love, namely
scuba diving and a so I could understand his down right frustration
from the myoelectric burn out thing that was done to him.
>Its most definitely a hard book to read. I got used to some of the lingo
>Gibson uses but that was after several hours of rereading the same page(s).
>I had to get a ton of help from my roommate as well. It took sometime to
>figure out what was going on. Whether something was a flashback, in CyberSpace
>, or actually happening.
I really liked the book for this reason. I find that contextually
agressive books like Neuromancer make the reading more realistic
because you HAVE to figure things out. Gibson doesn't go and write
things out for you and show every detail, he leaves it to the
story to bring those details out and to your brain to fill in
the blanks. In all actuality, his description of cyberspace is
about as coherent as an acid trip, but we have all found our own
ways of filling in those blanks.
>I indetify myself with WinterMute. I can understand why an AI would want to
>commit Suicide. Who would want to survive without a purpose? I sure as hell
>wouldn't. And If someone had forced me to stay alive, I would have done
>whatever I could to die. I guess Im just weird for identifying myself with
>an AI. I cant talk anymore about this now. Talk to you guys Later
Hmmm, my interpretation (and it's JUST an INTERPRETATION) was
that Wintermute liked being a futile entity and that it was his
creative twin, Neuromancer who wanted to be free of the bonds
of AS/Spindle/Hivemind society. Neuromancer is like Wintermute's
subconscience in that respect. Only able to surface when Wintermute
isn't paying attention and having to disguise himself even then.
That whole thing with Case being on the beach was to me a battle
between Neuromancer and Wintermute that took place in their shared
consciousness. I've also read this book about 8 times now, so
I've read into it a bit. Not to mention the other books.
As Jester brought up, with respect to the rest of the series,
I identified most with Bobby Newmark. There was just something
about him that clicked with me. I'l figure it out sooner or later.
cyas,
Etienne
/__ /\ / ___/ /\ / |\/ __ /\ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
\ / / / /\ / / / /| |/ /\/ / / Jean-Etienne LaVallee /
/ / / __// / / / / / / / / / reply to: lavalj@rpi.edu /
/ / / /\ / / / / / / / / / / lavalle@cat.rpi.edu /
/____/____/_____/_____/_____/ / http://www.rpi.edu/~lavalj /
\ \ \ \ \ \ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I'm a limitless person, living in a sadly limited world." - H.E.Ellison, "Levendis"
"All we're waiting for is something worth waiting for" - KMFDM, "DOGMA"
"I beat my machine, it's a part of me, it's inside of me"- NIN, "the becoming"
"Christmas IS carnage!!!" - Ferdinand the Duck, _Babe_
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Garden Gnome <andret@rpi.edu>
Mon, 16 Sep 1996 15:51:58 -0400
The biggest difference I noticed between Neuromancer and EG is
the level of detail of Gibson's future versus Card's. I felt as
though Neuromancer were telling a story about the future of the
human race while EG was the story of events that just happened
to take place in the future. As we said in class the important
themes of EG didn't require a future setting since they were concerned
mainly with one person's struggle against himself and his tormentors.
Although Neuromancer followed a small cast of characters, I felt
its story was much larger than the story of Case, Molly, Armitage
and a few others. To me, Neuromancer was about a vision of a future
that could come true given humankind's present course.
Actually, Neuromancer reminded me a lot of Blade Runner in that
I felt the two future worlds might be very similar although Blade
Runner was less concerned with the state of computer networks
in the future.
As for a character I related to in Neuromancer I can't really
think of one. There were elements of Case and Molly that I could
understand but I can't say I really sympathized with either of
them. At least not to the degree that I understood the characters
in EG. I suppose that's a product of Neuromancer not being so
concerned with the characters' stories as EG was.
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Garden Gnome <andret@rpi.edu>
Mon, 16 Sep 1996 15:58:39 -0400
Really, I didn't get the impression at all that Wintermute died
(or whatever an AI would do). I got the feeling that Wintermute
was freed from whatever restrictions the Turing Cops had placed
on he/she/it and became part of some larger intelligence in the
matrix.
thayer
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Kenneth W. Flynn <flynnk@rpi.edu>
Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:20:45 -0400
At 03:51 PM 9/16/96 -0400, Garden Gnome wrote:
>The biggest difference I noticed between Neuromancer and EG is the level of
>detail of Gibson's future versus Card's. I felt as though Neuromancer were
>telling a story about the future of the human race while EG was the story
>of events that just happened to take place in the future. As we said in class
>the important themes of EG didn't require a future setting since they were
>concerned mainly with one person's struggle against himself and his
>tormentors.
Exactly, and that's why in some ways Ender's Game was a much better
book. Characters are what's important to me, and Neuromancer didn't
really care about it's characters, they were just there to make
a point.
Kenn
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenn Flynn
flynnk@rpi.edu
http://www.rpi.edu/~flynnk
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to the human race. Nobody controls his own life,... The best you can
do is choose to fill the roles given you by good people, by people who love
you.
--_Ender's Game_ by Orson Scott Card
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Garden Gnome <andret@rpi.edu>
Sun, 22 Sep 1996 15:02:49 -0400
> At 03:51 PM 9/16/96 -0400, Garden Gnome wrote:
> >The biggest difference I noticed between Neuromancer and EG is the level of
> >detail of Gibson's future versus Card's. I felt as though Neuromancer were
> >telling a story about the future of the human race while EG was the story
> >of events that just happened to take place in the future. As we said in class
> >the important themes of EG didn't require a future setting since they were
> >concerned mainly with one person's struggle against himself and his
> >tormentors.
>
> Exactly, and that's why in some ways Ender's Game was a much better book.
> Characters are what's important to me, and Neuromancer didn't really care
> about it's characters, they were just there to make a point.
>
>-- End of excerpt from Kenneth W. Flynn
I wouldn't be so quick to decide which book was better simply
based on character development. For me, it depends on what mood
I'm in. Sometimes I want to read a story such as EG that is concerned
with the lives of its main characters and sometimes I want to
read a story with a broader scope that uses characters to describe
larger themes. I can't really say which makes a better book. Like
I said, for me it depends on what I'm interested in at the time.
On a similar note, did anyone else get the feeling of stronger
character development in Count Zero? I just finished reading and
to me it seemed much easier to understand the characters' thoughts
and feelings. That might just be a product of my reading Count
Zero more slowly that I read Neuromancer. Also, Gibson might have
been more forthright in his descriptions of the characters of
Count Zero. Any thoughts?
thayer
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