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implants, cyborgs, and the man

Xanatos <gentrj>

Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:44:12 -0400

this is spawned from a discussion between a roomate and myself. He is biomed/EE ... and his dream is to create those microchips they're gonna implant in us to make our lives easier. Now, I have no problem w/ that, except that I think that they'll be used to keep track of us.

What? you may ask. Well, they've already allowed putting in tracer chips into inmates in various states. Public Encryption was almost banned under the guise of "anti-terrorism." Soon we will be living in a police state if we don't wake up - and here we go wanting chips put in us which will allow someone to stalk every move we make?

Remember in the movie seven, where they had the FBI which flagged people who checked out certain books? It seems far fetched, but I know of several BBS's and the like which are flagged. It is rumoured that a lot of those book stores which sells survivalist/ anarchist/etc books are run by CIA/FBI/ABC/CDE/ETC to see who is ordering them.

Sometimes I am leary when I want to buy something which could possibly be used against me w/ a credit card. who knows what record that will be put on.

So ... i'm all for being all chromed out, but I'm a bit scared about having it "traceable."

Oh, BTW ... some dude in japan just invented "2 way tv" 1984 ... it looks like we're just 12 years behind.

j

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Re: implants, cyborgs, and the man

lavalj@rpi.edu (Jean-Etienne LaVallee)

Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:56:58 GMT

Jeff,

No flames here, but, your paranoia knows no bounds 8^) I agree that technology leads to easier eaves dropping, but I can't believe that our sad excuse of an intellegence community could actually invest the time or resources into tracking the activities of every single person in America. Also, why do you own a computer? And if you do, why do you let it stay plugged into your phone line? 'Cause in the middle of the night, the NSA could be silently stalking around your hard disk just looking for one of a million pirated copies of DoomII (violent video games, a sure sign of a deviant personality).

People who don't want to be seen, aren't. It's that simple. A friend of mine is on the NSA college program, so each summer he goes to Virginia and does things with computers that could get him shot. One of his favorite things is to mock the LACK of ability in the government when it comes to technology and counter-intellegence. An example he used was that the FBI and ATF didn't know about the Waco compound until they did something VERY dumb, like selling modified weapons to an FBI agent at a trade show. In my opinion, that's great, they should have nabbed them.

But then there's the "innocent" computer user who's just "having a little fun." My father has been responsible for several teens and adults being convicted for telephone fraud. The kids are one thing and he never really likes having to be a part of the raids when it involves a teenager. But, the adults are something different, their was one guy who was making close to $300K a year on phone, internet, and credit card scams. He alone cost my father's company almost $400k in lost phone service. But this guy left HUGE foot prints everywhere. The credit card companies new about his activities before my father's company. He was a walking data trail of informatic coruption.

And, Jeff, all I have to say is Xstalker. You've done it, I've done it, alot of people do it. So why are you still using a computer? Why are you writing to this list? The same reason you talk on your phone, and in public places, and on elevators. You have no choice and as long as you aren't doing something totally stupid, you can talk all you want.

>Remember in the movie seven, where they had the

>FBI which flagged people who checked out certain

>books?

Well, look what it lead to...that poor, G-d fearing, serial killer got caught. Gee, I hate that the FBI exists.

>Sometimes I am leary when I want to buy something which

>could possibly be used against me w/ a credit card.

>who knows what record that will be put on.

Especially those wretched on-line junkmail lists.

>Oh, BTW ... some dude in japan just invented "2 way tv"

>1984 ... it looks like we're just 12 years behind.

2-way TV's been there for a while. Just no-one uses it...Or do they???? Cable is capable of 2-way transmission, but WHY? Think people WON'T ask that if someone actually tried to sell them one?

Mege-UGH,

l8r,

Ing-Soc,

Etienne

/__ /\ / ___/ /\ / |\/ __ /\ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

\ / / / /\ / / / /| |/ /\/ / / Jean-Etienne LaVallee /

/ / / __// / / / / / / / / / reply to: lavalj@rpi.edu /

/ / / /\ / / / / / / / / / / lavalle@cat.rpi.edu /

/____/____/_____/_____/_____/ / http://www.rpi.edu/~lavalj /

\ \ \ \ \ \ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

"I'm a limitless person, living in a sadly limited world." - H.E.Ellison, "Levendis"

"All we're waiting for is something worth waiting for" - KMFDM, "DOGMA"

"I beat my machine, it's a part of me, it's inside of me"- NIN, "the becoming"

"Christmas IS carnage!!!" - Ferdinand the Duck, _Babe_

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Re: implants, cyborgs, and the man

list <channc@rpi.edu>

Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:52:22 -0400

That two way TV concept sounds neat, but how does that differ from teleconferencing technology already in existence. I would be interested in knowing. Where did you find out this information.

As for me, I'm not interested in being chromed out. Just let me die when it's my time. After all, I'm only human.

Craig Channer

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Re: implants, cyborgs, and the man

Leareth <leareth@rpi.edu>

Sun, 20 Oct 1996 19:47:58 -0400 (EDT)

> No flames here, but, your paranoia knows no bounds 8^) I

even paranoids have enemies.

> agree that technology leads to easier eaves dropping, but I can't

> believe that our sad excuse of an intellegence community could

> actually invest the time or resources into tracking the activities of

> every single person in America. Also, why do you own a computer? And

and why not? why the big government fight to ban public encryption schemes? why the big push for clipperchip? how hard would it be to setup a simple "e-mail scanner"? just install it on some major router/line and have it scan for keywords like "drugs" or "assassination" "president" or "contraband". now, once you start that, where do you stop? once you ban a book, where do you stop? where does the line get drawn on personal privacy?

> if you do, why do you let it stay plugged into your phone line?

> 'Cause in the middle of the night, the NSA could be silently stalking

> around your hard disk just looking for one of a million pirated copies

> of DoomII (violent video games, a sure sign of a deviant personality).

impossible. unless of course the person's computer is in some sort of server mode, poorly configured, or with easily guessable passwords to user accounts. i ran a bbs for a couple years, and i know something of what you can and can't do with phonelines.

> But then there's the "innocent" computer user who's just

> "having a little fun." My father has been responsible for several

> teens and adults being convicted for telephone fraud. The kids are

> one thing and he never really likes having to be a part of the raids

a couple of friends of mine came across an interesting phreak-like thing. they could dial long distance, and bill it to a third party area code in canada. now, in canada, this area code no longer existed, but to the usa, it still did. i found in moderately humorous. i still think phone rates are greatly overblown, and i seriously doubt it's due to phreakers/hackers, i think simple greed is probably a more likely reason for jacked up local / longdistance rates.

> And, Jeff, all I have to say is Xstalker. You've done it,

> I've done it, alot of people do it. So why are you still using a

> computer? Why are you writing to this list? The same reason you talk

> on your phone, and in public places, and on elevators. You have no

> choice and as long as you aren't doing something totally stupid, you

> can talk all you want.

>

> >Remember in the movie seven, where they had the

> >FBI which flagged people who checked out certain

> >books?

> Well, look what it lead to...that poor, G-d fearing, serial

> killer got caught. Gee, I hate that the FBI exists.

i think the big question is do they have the right to monitor such activities? and once again, where do they stop, where is the line drawn... if monitoring what books you take out of libraries is ok, what else is "ok" to do?

> >who knows what record that will be put on.

> Especially those wretched on-line junkmail lists.

i posted once to usenet this summer, from marcus.its.rpi.edu, and now once a week i get e-mail to that address for something or other.

> >Oh, BTW ... some dude in japan just invented "2 way tv"

> >1984 ... it looks like we're just 12 years behind.

> 2-way TV's been there for a while. Just no-one uses it...Or

> do they???? Cable is capable of 2-way transmission, but WHY? Think

> people WON'T ask that if someone actually tried to sell them one?

they'll just record what shows you watch, figure out your age group, and start sending more and more commercials targeted for you your way. ain't 2way tv great? now they'll (tv companies) will know what shows you watch. and so will the cable people. now they can check if you're some sort of deviant and watch mtv. or that late night porn flick. where is the line on personal privacy drawn? i'm all for freedom of information, but i don't think that appiles to my personal life.

### ##### http://www.rpi.edu/~hallm4

######## ##### leareth@rpi.edu

#### ### ######

######## ####### put my faith in god, my trust in you

###### #### ### now there's nothing more fucked up i could do

##### ######## NiN

### #####

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Re: implants, cyborgs, and the man

lavalj@rpi.edu (Jean-Etienne LaVallee)

Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:30:57 GMT

Heyas,

Shit, fuck, crack, blow, acid, phreak, pot, weed, assasinate, bomb, pcp, satan, satan, satan

Apologies to those I've just offended. Wanted to make sure I got caught by all of those juicy government email filters 8^)

> how hard would it be to setup

>a simple "e-mail scanner"? just install it on some major router/line and

>have it scan for keywords like "drugs" or "assassination" "president" or

>"contraband". now, once you start that, where do you stop? once you ban a

>book, where do you stop? where does the line get drawn on personal privacy?

Well, setting up such a filter would be trivial. BUT, where do all the people come from to track down ever instance of such linguistic infractions? Don't forget that until we get AI's, there still needs to be human beings somewhere in this filtering loop.

>impossible. unless of course the person's computer is in some sort of

>server mode, poorly configured, or with easily guessable passwords to

>user accounts. i ran a bbs for a couple years, and i know something of

>what you can and can't do with phonelines.

I know that, the point is, what goes on when you aren't looking? If someone is so paranoid about the future why are they contributing to being potential victims in the present?

>a couple of friends of mine came across an interesting phreak-like thing.

>they could dial long distance, and bill it to a third party area code in

>canada. now, in canada, this area code no longer existed, but to the usa,

>it still did. i found in moderately humorous. i still think phone rates

>are greatly overblown, and i seriously doubt it's due to

>phreakers/hackers, i think simple greed is probably a more likely reason

>for jacked up local / longdistance rates.

That's great and all, when I was in high school I figured out a predialing sequence that would make my phone calls look like they came from another phone line. Course, I made two phone calls on it and had an edge with my father's job and the resources that brought with it. What I was talking about was people who make a living doing this stuff. And there are people who do this.

As for the cost of phone service, the price you pay makes things like network and phone technology possible. AT&T sure doesn't make it's R&D money off of computer sales.

This is just like the gripe that computer software costs too much. Sorry, but if it cost nothing then no one would write it and what little software was written would be impossible to use, because most people would know how. Take Linux for example. It's a free, great operating system, but most people can't even install it. It's not that hard to do, but not everyone is a computer programmer or engineer. Win95 on the otherhand is full of problems, but it's easy to use, it actually tries to help the user solve problems. But it cost money. That's obviously bad. The entreprenuer/heathen Bill Gates too. Can't have vision and make money at the same time, that's wrong.

On the "going too far" thing. I was stalked online last year by someone who was simultaniously stalking my girlfriend. He used a remailer which made it impossible to track the sourch of the email he sent me. I would get messages about his watching her get dressed, what she was eating for lunch, who she talked to in public. Now, should he have had the right to do this and get away with it? Should someone have stepped in? I rejoice every time I hear about a remailer system being shut down. BTW, I found out who it was by non-electronic routes and it was deemed "inadmissable" by both public safety and Troy police.

I don't like the idea of government control, but I equaly don't like the idea of give people, individuals without rationality, control of a technology that they can use to harm another person's life or mental well being.

l8r,

Etienne

/__ /\ / ___/ /\ / |\/ __ /\ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

\ / / / /\ / / / /| |/ /\/ / / Jean-Etienne LaVallee /

/ / / __// / / / / / / / / / reply to: lavalj@rpi.edu /

/ / / /\ / / / / / / / / / / lavalle@cat.rpi.edu /

/____/____/_____/_____/_____/ / http://www.rpi.edu/~lavalj /

\ \ \ \ \ \ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

"I'm a limitless person, living in a sadly limited world." - H.E.Ellison,

"Levendis"

"All we're waiting for is something worth waiting for" - KMFDM, "DOGMA"

"I beat my machine, it's a part of me, it's inside of me"- NIN, "the

becoming"

"Christmas IS carnage!!!" - Ferdinand the Duck, _Babe_

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Re: implants, cyborgs, and the man

Xanatos <gentrj@rpi.edu>

Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:18:07 -0400 (EDT)

On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Jean-Etienne LaVallee wrote:

> No flames here, but, your paranoia knows no bounds 8^) I Would it surprise you that I used to have an account at 'paranoia.com'? :)

> agree that technology leads to easier eaves dropping, but I can't

> believe that our sad excuse of an intellegence community could

> actually invest the time or resources into tracking the activities of

> every single person in America. Also, why do you own a computer? And

This strongly relates to an ongoing arguement I've been having w/ one of my roomates. See, I don't believe that the gov't, or some corp, or whatever will be stalking every US citizen. The thing is, the ability to stalk any _given_ citizen and invade their privacy. For instance ... imagine if someone in power wanted to discredit/run through the mud/etc someone else. The greater the ability for those in power to get this sort of information electronically, the easier their task becomes - and thus, the larger the number of people this can be done to. Now, IMO, personal pleasures and other such "moral questions" really shouldn't be used against someone publicly, but the fact is they are ... (like a politician who has their sex life put in front of everyone ... how does that affect their politicing? Or the Albany HS math teacher who was suspended because the school board found out that not only was he <gasp> gay, but <gasp gasp> into bondage. Why does that affect his teaching ability?) but, I digress.

> if you do, why do you let it stay plugged into your phone line?

> 'Cause in the middle of the night, the NSA could be silently stalking

> around your hard disk just looking for one of a million pirated copies

> of DoomII (violent video games, a sure sign of a deviant personality).

I do believe that win95 did this for a while. Looks like Mr. Bill fancies himself Big Brother.

If anyone doesn't know what I'm referring to, it was wildly speculated (and there were people w/ "proof" both ways, but since i"ve never run win95, I don't know) ... that when you connected to MSN to register your system and al lthat jazz, that the contents of your HD were U/Led to MSN (just directory listings and such) - presumably for marketing info. When questioned, MS said that they had something along those lines that checked for people running unregistered MS software.

If that last statement is true, then they should be sued for invasion of privacy. I'll pirate their software till the cows come home, but they better not perform illicit searches on my HD to check for it.

> And, Jeff, all I have to say is Xstalker. You've done it,

> I've done it, alot of people do it. So why are you still using a

> computer? Why are you writing to this list? The same reason you talk

I will say, that learning what can be done w/ X to use and abuse it has really freaked me out about security here at RPI. And XStalker is a joke compared to other X manipulation-type things. It has gotten to the point where I don't even bother worrying about my X connections because ITS is too lazy to even make sure that the tickets expire on time. With that being true, there's nothing I can even do if someone happens to have my ticket, so why even bother worrying?

> Well, look what it lead to...that poor, G-d fearing, serial

> killer got caught. Gee, I hate that the FBI exists.

True ... but look at it this way. Suppose again, that the whole FBI book flagging is true (stretch, but possible). Now suppose I want to get a government job in the future (true) ... and they look me up. Now, what if I've taken both the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf (both for school work) out of the library ... i'd imagine that these are two "flagged books" if any are. I can list off at least 50 other books which I could see being "flagged" ... what if that keeps me from getting that job, even if they were for research, etc -> not to start some revolution or something?

> Especially those wretched on-line junkmail lists.

Oh god yes. I get mail sent to gentrj@sage4d.its.rpi.edu. I haven't logged into that machine since freshman year. Yet, somehow, I'm on a "CD of opportunity seekers" put out by "massmail@aol.com" (puke!)

------

Jeff Gentry jester@rpi.edu

RPI CompSci Senior http://www.rpi.edu/~gentrj

"Fifty years of programming language research, and we end up with C++."

* Unsolicited advertising will be proofread at the cost of US$5000/hr, *

* 4 hours min. Mailing of such will be taken as acceptance of these terms. *

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Xanatos <gentrj@rpi.edu>

Re: implants, cyborgs, and the man

Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:26:52 -0400 (EDT)

On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, list wrote:

> That two way TV concept sounds neat, but how does that differ from

> teleconferencing technology already in existence. I would be interested in

> knowing. Where did you find out this information.

The way that it would differ is that w/ current teleconf tech, one has to willingly set it up. Here, it would be possible to have the 2nd way connection in secretly so as to spy on people. Heard it from my roomate, who knows if its valid or not.

Random side note: Back ~1980, my dad worked for a cable TV company (Warner Amex ... subsidiary of WB) ... Anyhow, they developed interactive TV. They had a few test gameshows on and that sort of thing, where the home audience could send signals back through their cable and affect the outcome of the show. No one liked it, the company laid off 85% of their employees, and the concept faded.

Imagine if they had done that 10 years later? Something tells me that I wouldn't need all the loans I need to go to school :)

> As for me, I'm not interested in being chromed out. Just let me die

> when it's my time. After all, I'm only human.

yes, but i'd be more human than human.

------

Jeff Gentry jester@rpi.edu

RPI CompSci Senior http://www.rpi.edu/~gentrj

"Fifty years of programming language research, and we end up with C++."

* Unsolicited advertising will be proofread at the cost of US$5000/hr, *

* 4 hours min. Mailing of such will be taken as acceptance of these terms. *

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