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Dennis Payne <dulsi@identical.stu.rpi.edu>
Thu, 05 Sep 1996 12:49 -0400
The Giant's Game
The Giant's Game is one of the things I disliked the most in EG.
IMHO I don't know of an interface you could give it that would
allow for the abilities of it without being VR. The game however
isn't described that way. The game also preaty much requires an
AI.
Child's Play
I frankly thought the kids were fairly realistic. The only thing
that bothered me was the long term planing which I decided was
because of his genetic engineering. That seems to be the same
that Manic Frog said.
On to Hollywood
After seeing Barb Wire the other week I not sure there is much
hope for Hollywood. I think the best way to handle the battle
room is to change to a VR setup. That way you could computer graphics
without having to make the perfect person. The movie will probably
end up being closer to the short story (judging from the description
given on the list since I haven't read it).
Stealing?
I'm not posting this to the newsgroup boothj suggested. Not because
I dislike the idea of a newsgroup but because I dislike taking
over a newsgroup. If you want a newsgroup get one created for
it. Would you live in someone elses summer home simply because
it's not being used?
Dennis Payne
dulsi@identical.stu.rpi.edu
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Sick Boy <boothj@rpi.edu>
Sun, 08 Sep 1996
On Sep 5, 5:49pm, Dennis Payne wrote:
> Stealing?
> I'm not posting this to the newsgroup boothj suggested. Not because
> I dislike the idea of a newsgroup but because I dislike taking over a
> newsgroup. If you want a newsgroup get one created for it. Would you
> live in someone elses summer home simply because it's not
being used?
hell yes. if it's not illegal and i'm not messing things up and they're not
using it, then i see nothing wrong with it. on a side note, i'm project
coordinator for the electronics club and we've never used the group in my
time...
hey webbj (or anyone who keeps tabs on usenet), tell us about the alt.bigfoot
takeover!
boothj
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Bankim J. Tejani <tejanb@rpi.edu>
Sun, 08 Sep 1996 12:13 -0400
On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Sick Boy wrote:
> On Sep 5, 5:49pm, Dennis Payne wrote:
> > Stealing?
> > I'm not posting this to the newsgroup boothj suggested. Not because
> > I dislike the idea of a newsgroup but because I dislike taking over a
> > newsgroup. If you want a newsgroup get one created for it. Would you
> > live in someone elses summer home simply because it's not being used?
>
> hell yes. if it's not illegal and i'm not messing things up and they're not
> using it, then i see nothing wrong with it. on a side note, i'm project
> coordinator for the electronics club and we've never used the group in my
> time...
>
> hey webbj (or anyone who keeps tabs on usenet), tell us about the alt.bigfoot
> takeover!
>
> boothj
Illegal or not, it's still wrong to takeover a usenet group that's
not yours. It's unethical, and I won't have any part of it.
Bankim J. Tejani # tejanb@rpi.edu # http://lotus.stu.rpi.edu/
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute - Class of 1999
Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate.
"The eyes of truth are always watching you." -- Enigma
The Roots of Evil and Prejudice: a. Religion b. Apathy c. Humans
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Jean-Etienne LaVallee <lavalj@rpi.edu>
Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:48 -0400
tejanb wrote:
> Illegal or not, it's still wrong to takeover a usenet group that's not
> yours. It's unethical, and I won't have any part of it.
Don't breath my air then!
I didn't tell you you could, did I?
Sure I'm not using it right now, but that doesn't mean you can just go and breath it all up on me.
Get a bloody grip.
It's a solution.
More than you've offered.
Etienne
/__ /\ / ___/ /\ / |\/ __ /\ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
\ / / / /\ / / / /| |/ /\/ / / Jean-Etienne LaVallee /
/ / / __// / / / / / / / / / reply to: lavalj@rpi.edu /
/ / / /\ / / / / / / / / / / lavalle@cat.rpi.edu /
/____/____/_____/_____/_____/ / http://www.rpi.edu/~lavalj /
\ \ \ \ \ \ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I'm a limitless person, living in a sadly limited world." - H.E.Ellison, "Levendis"
"All we're waiting for is something worth waiting for" - KMFDM, "DOGMA"
"I beat my machine, it's a part of me, it's inside of me"- NIN, "the becoming"
"Christmas IS carnage!!!" - Ferdinand the Duck, _Babe_
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Bankim J. Tejani <tejanb@rpi.edu>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:12 -0400
Jean-Etienne LaVallee wrote:
>
> tejanb wrote:
>
> > Illegal or not, it's still wrong to takeover a usenet group that's not
> > yours. It's unethical, and I won't have any part of it.
> Don't breath my air then!
> I didn't tell you you could, did I?
> Sure I'm not using it right now, but that doesn't mean you
> can just go and breath it all up on me.
> Get a bloody grip.
> It's a solution.
> More than you've offered.
> Etienne
>
Your argument is like saying, "You're not using your car
while you're in class, I'm going to take it." Anyway you
put it it's theft. It doesn't matter if it's disk space on a server
or a car, it's theft.
BTW: Air is free.
Bankim J. Tejani # tejanb@rpi.edu # http://lotus.stu.rpi.edu/
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute - Class of 1999
Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate.
"The eyes of truth are always watching you." -- Enigma
The Roots of Evil and Prejudice: a. Religion b. Apathy c. Humans
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Agent Webb <webbj>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:53 -0400
Bankim J. Tejani reported:
> Jean-Etienne LaVallee wrote:
> > Don't breath my air then!
> > I didn't tell you you could, did I?
> Your argument is like saying, "You're not using your car while you're in
> class, I'm going to take it." Anyway you put it it's theft. It doesn't
> matter if it's disk space on a server or a car, it's theft.
>
> BTW: Air is free.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So are these newsgroups, champ.
Well, free with the purchase of tuition ;)
-Agent Webb-
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Dennis Payne <dulsi@identical.stu.rpi.edu>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:30 -0400
> Anyhow ... I contend that Newsgroups which are not being used are in fact
> wasted disk space. We are optimizing the usage of that space. Do not
> try to bring a "real world" example into this, as I challenge its validity
> on the grounds that the net and the "real world" are two completely different
> entities. Think of the net as a commune, not as a privatized world.
> If you were living in a commune, and you had no room to sleep in, but someone
> else went on vactation, there would not be a problem for you to crash in
> the empty room, that is the purpose.
"Real world" example are very poor for most comparison
with the net. However if you have a room with bathroom written
on the door you don't expect to find Computer Science I to be
taught inside. The reason newsgroups have names is so people know
where to look for things. Now if you removed the bathroom sign
and put Computer Science I that makes sense. The same applies
in the net, however, users can't change the names and are forced
to go through CIS (formerly ITS). After (or perhaps before) one
must also get yourself removed from the mailing list which considering
how long it took to remove one of mine :) No one has done this
(and no I do not expect it to work).
Now why don't we just settle the arguement with we disagree and
move onto discussions of class material.
Dennis Payne
dulsi@identical.stu.rpi.edu
payned@rpi.edu
PS mick I appear to be one the list only once now.
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Drathos <gruelk@rpi.edu>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:46 -0400
> that last line is no small matter. every class i've ever taught, i've
> had students say "the great thing about school is e-mail accounts are
> free." (three difference universitiues) ...
>
> this, of course, is unbelieveably UNtrue ... rest assured that we
> pay as much for access as your typical .com user -- the fees are simply
> buried in tuition, "student fees" and the like.
actually.. i must disagree with this... i personally have 4 accounts
that are completely free.. one of which is a commercial e-mail provider
(juno.com)...
> and, incidentally, we are subsidizing faculty e-mail usage ...
> unless they are charged user fees i don't know about. at Bowling
> green, this was not the case.
with all the money rpi is sapping from us? i should hope there's no
other fees...
,-----------------------------------------------------------------------.
| ///, //// |
| Drathos \ /, / / |
| (gruelk@rpi.edu) \ /, _/ / |
| \_ /_/ / |
| I watch the world go round and round \__/_ / |
| And see mine turning upside down /<<< \_\ |
| -Genesis (Throwing It All Away) /,)^>>_._ \ |
| (/ \\ /\\\ |
| May your way be green and golden... // ```` |
| ((` |
`-----------------------------------------------------------------------'
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Bankim J. Tejani <tejanb@rpi.edu>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:12:10 -0400 (EDT)
Jean-Etienne LaVallee wrote:
>
> tejanb wrote:
>
> > Illegal or not, it's still wrong to takeover a usenet group that's not
> > yours. It's unethical, and I won't have any part of it.
> Don't breath my air then!
> I didn't tell you you could, did I?
> Sure I'm not using it right now, but that doesn't mean you
> can just go and breath it all up on me.
> Get a bloody grip.
> It's a solution.
> More than you've offered.
> Etienne
>
Your argument is like saying, "You're not using your car
while you're in class, I'm going to take it." Anyway you
put it it's theft. It doesn't matter if it's disk space on a server
or a car, it's theft.
BTW: Air is free.
Bankim J. Tejani # tejanb@rpi.edu # http://lotus.stu.rpi.edu/
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute - Class of 1999
Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate.
"The eyes of truth are always watching you." -- Enigma
The Roots of Evil and Prejudice: a. Religion b. Apathy c. Humans
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Jester <gentrj>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:23:12 -0400
> Your argument is like saying, "You're not using your car while you're in
> class, I'm going to take it." Anyway you put it it's theft. It doesn't
> matter if it's disk space on a server or a car, it's theft.
Hmmm ... I think this totally depends on your perception of a
newsgroup. Is it really something that someone "owns"?
This to me, reeks of the "new wave" of attitude towards
things netly. That is, let us use the same paradigms that we have
in the "real world." (Which, IMO, blows so much chunks
... but hey.) No longer do people view the internet as a brave
new world, but rather, something to be conqured and colonized.
I mean, sure ... there are a lot of people who think that the
net is some sort of frontier world, but they're just fooling themselves.
It is like the "alternative craze" ... by the time it
became a craze, it is by definition no longer alternative, so
all the kids who got all punked out were just making fools of
themselves - making mockery of the whole concept.
the net is like punk. it was something raw, full of energy and
life, had philosphical paradigms that challenged those of the
mainstream world. then some corporate fucks found out about it,
and made the masses think they were being "cool" by
joining it ... but the masses are a lot more easily entertained,
so it watered down the product.
Anyhow ... I contend that Newsgroups which are not being used
are in fact wasted disk space. We are optimizing the usage of
that space. Do not try to bring a "real world" example
into this, as I challenge its validity on the grounds that the
net and the "real world" are two completely different
entities. Think of the net as a commune, not as a privatized world.
If you were living in a commune, and you had no room to sleep
in, but someone else went on vactation, there would not be a problem
for you to crash in the empty room, that is the purpose.
> BTW: Air is free.
IMO, the more the masses hold to the sorts of opinions as your
other viewpoints, the shorter time it will be until the big corps
start charging us for "air usage" or something wacky
like that.
They'll monitor it with the microchips the CIA put in our brains and mark us with the UP
<<CALL CLEARED>>
fnord
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Mick Doherty <doherm>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:24 -0400
webbj writes;
> BTW: Air is free.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So are these newsgroups, champ.
Well, free with the purchase of tuition ;)
--------
that last line is no small matter. every class i've ever taught,
i've had students say "the great thing about school is e-mail
accounts are free." (three difference universitiues) ...
this, of course, is unbelieveably UNtrue ... rest assured that
we pay as much for access as your typical .com user -- the fees
are simply buried in tuition, "student fees" and the
like.
and, incidentally, we are subsidizing faculty e-mail usage ...
unless they are charged user fees i don't know about. at Bowling
green, this was not the case.
so across the board, "the net is free" arguments, even
for us .edu-ers, is nonsense.
i'd be happy to hear counter-statements; hell, i'dbe happy to
learn somehow that i'm *wrong8* ...
mick@rpi
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Tony Mrazik <mrazia@rpi.edu>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:42 -0400
> Your argument is like saying, "You're not using your car while you're in
> class, I'm going to take it." Anyway you put it it's theft. It doesn't
> matter if it's disk space on a server or a car, it's theft.
Actually the argument is like saying "If you aren't using
your car can I borrow it?" I am not going to go through every
message to find it, but Jesse has said that he is a part of the
organization (project coordinator of the Electronics Club). Is
it necessary to get the president of the club to say something?
I don't think so. One of the buzzwords in industry the last few
years has been empowerment, which, loosely defined, is taking
it upon yourself to get something done that needs to get done.
Tony
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Mick Doherty <doherm>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:50 -0400
> upon yourself to get something done that needs to get done.
which begs the question ...
did we settle the fact that this "needs" to get done?
just out of curiosity, of the 43 people sybscribed to the class
list, how many have contributed to this newsgroup?
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Agent Webb <webbj>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:53:20 -0400 (EDT)
Bankim J. Tejani reported:
> Jean-Etienne LaVallee wrote:
> > Don't breath my air then!
> > I didn't tell you you could, did I?
> Your argument is like saying, "You're not using your car while you're in
> class, I'm going to take it." Anyway you put it it's theft. It doesn't
> matter if it's disk space on a server or a car, it's theft.
>
> BTW: Air is free.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So are these newsgroups, champ.
Well, free with the purchase of tuition ;)
-Agent Webb-
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Jester <gentrj>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:55 -0400
> so across the board, "the net is free" arguments, even for us .edu-ers,
> is nonsense.
Well, my counterarguement starts by saying that you are mixing
up definitions and meanings for the term "free." I gave
up a long time ago thinking that the net should be (monetarily)
free. Being of the thought that gov't should stay the hell out
of ppl's lives, it is hypocritical of me to think that the NSF
should subsidizie the internet the way it does. Do I like paying
money for something that I think should not cost anything ...
no ... however, I realize that w/o some sort of cash, the net
would not be able to exist. (on a side note, i think that once
the big corps dig their claws in full bore, the prices will be
gouged extraordinarily, but ....) ...
However, this is not the correct usage of "free" in
a lot of "free net" arguements. The free is as in "freedom."
Freedom to do, say, be, act, etc as and how you want. This was
the root (pardon pun) of netiquette ... if I thought that jester@wizvax.net
was being an ass, I could mail postmaster, or root@wizvax and
let them know. Back in the day, SysAdmins cared about such things.
Now they care about making $$$ (not true across the board, i know
... but a lot of the users i complain about come from the big
ones ... AOL, compu$erve, MSN, etc).
So, the arguement that "this newsgroup is free" means
more "free to use, as long as the 'proper users' do not seem
to mind. If, say, the prez of the Electronics club sends a note
to one of us, saying, "Leave our group" and we continue,
we are being bad. Then, they could mail our sysadmins who would
take care of us as they saw fit.
j
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Jester <gentrj>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:56 -0400
> how many have contributed to this newsgroup?
Roughly the same # that have contributed to the list w/ any sort
of regularity. That is, it is the same # minus the poeple who
had some sort of pretentious morality issue.
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Mick Doherty <doherm>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:24:26 -0400
webbj writes;
> BTW: Air is free.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So are these newsgroups, champ.
Well, free with the purchase of tuition ;)
--------
that last line is no small matter. every class i've ever taught,
i've had students say "the great thing about school is e-mail
accounts are free." (three difference universitiues) ...
this, of course, is unbelieveably UNtrue ... rest assured that
we pay as much for access as your typical .com user -- the fees
are simply buried in tuition, "student fees" and the
like.
and, incidentally, we are subsidizing faculty e-mail usage ...
unless they are charged user fees i don't know about. at Bowling
green, this was not the case.
so across the board, "the net is free" arguments, even
for us .edu-ers, is nonsense.
i'd be happy to hear counter-statements; hell, i'dbe happy to
learn somehow that i'm *wrong8* ...
mick@rpi
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Mick Doherty <doherm>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:50:22 -0400
> upon yourself to get something done that needs to get done.
which begs the question ...
did we settle the fact that this "needs" to get done?
just out of curiosity, of the 43 people sybscribed to the class
list, how many have contributed to this newsgroup?
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Jester <gentrj>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:55:38 -0400
> so across the board, "the net is free" arguments, even for us .edu-ers,
> is nonsense.
Well, my counterarguement starts by saying that you are mixing
up definitions and meanings for the term "free." I gave
up a long time ago thinking that the net should be (monetarily)
free. Being of the thought that gov't should stay the hell out
of ppl's lives, it is hypocritical of me to think that the NSF
should subsidizie the internet the way it does. Do I like paying
money for something that I think should not cost anything ...
no ... however, I realize that w/o some sort of cash, the net
would not be able to exist. (on a side note, i think that once
the big corps dig their claws in full bore, the prices will be
gouged extraordinarily, but ....) ...
However, this is not the correct usage of "free" in
a lot of "free net" arguements. The free is as in "freedom."
Freedom to do, say, be, act, etc as and how you want. This was
the root (pardon pun) of netiquette ... if I thought that jester@wizvax.net
was being an ass, I could mail postmaster, or root@wizvax and
let them know. Back in the day, SysAdmins cared about such things.
Now they care about making $$$ (not true across the board, i know
... but a lot of the users i complain about come from the big
ones ... AOL, compu$erve, MSN, etc).
So, the arguement that "this newsgroup is free" means
more "free to use, as long as the 'proper users' do not seem
to mind. If, say, the prez of the Electronics club sends a note
to one of us, saying, "Leave our group" and we continue,
we are being bad. Then, they could mail our sysadmins who would
take care of us as they saw fit.
j
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Jester <gentrj>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:56:55 -0400
> how many have contributed to this newsgroup?
Roughly the same # that have contributed to the list w/ any sort
of regularity. That is, it is the same # minus the poeple who
had some sort of pretentious morality issue.
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Drathos <gruelk@rpi.edu>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:46:57 -0400 (EDT)
> that last line is no small matter. every class i've ever taught, i've
> had students say "the great thing about school is e-mail accounts are
> free." (three difference universitiues) ...
>
> this, of course, is unbelieveably UNtrue ... rest assured that we
> pay as much for access as your typical .com user -- the fees are simply
> buried in tuition, "student fees" and the like.
actually.. i must disagree with this... i personally have 4 accounts
that are completely free.. one of which is a commercial e-mail
provider (juno.com)...
> and, incidentally, we are subsidizing faculty e-mail usage ...
> unless they are charged user fees i don't know about. at Bowling
> green, this was not the case.
with all the money rpi is sapping from us? i should hope there's
no other fees...
,-----------------------------------------------------------------------.
| ///, //// |
| Drathos \ /, / / |
| (gruelk@rpi.edu) \ /, _/ / |
| \_ /_/ / |
| I watch the world go round and round \__/_ / |
| And see mine turning upside down /<<< \_\ |
| -Genesis (Throwing It All Away) /,)^>>_._ \ |
| (/ \\ /\\\ |
| May your way be green and golden... // ```` |
| ((` |
`-----------------------------------------------------------------------'
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Jester <gentrj>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:17 -0400
> The reason newsgroups have names is so people know where
to look for things.
Well, the thing here is that since everyone knows that the spin-off
newsgroup for this list is rpi.union.electronics (or whatever
it is), they don't have to go searching for it, right? And since
no one else has posted to that group for an excessively long time,
obviously they don't go searching for it either. Like i said,
historically, the way things are found to be problems is if someone
views their "personal space" being infringed and reports
it to a higher authority. Kind of like one of the 17th century
philosophs (the exact one eludes me ... locke?) who stated that
government should have no authority except to step in when someone
infringed upon the rights of another - but until that point, everyone
had the right to do whatever they pleased. I contend that since
no one seems to be using this newsgroup, there is no one who is
having their rights infringed upon. Thus, we have the ultimate
right to do as we please. If/When someone from the electronics
club feels that their rights are being infringed upon, then it
becomes inherently wrong for us to use their group.
> Now why don't we just settle the arguement with we disagree and move onto
> discussions of class material.
That would be cool if the issue was resolved, but there still
seems to be content as to the validity of the newsgroup. Also,
I didn't see you putting up any class-related ideas in that last
message there, champ. not that i'm putting up any right now either,
but i'm not trying to take the moral higher ground. i'm just slinging
mud and loving it.
j
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Mick Doherty <doherm>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:42 -0400
> putting up any class-related ideas in that last message there,
champ
i guess i disagree with this premise. seems to me we're talking
in class about virtual technologies and communications, and the
effect of technology on social systems and power structures.
we're reading about it in the fiction. were *doing* it here online.
it's already apparent that a select few in the class -- those
most experieinced with and/or most comfortabe with the technology
are either A) leading the discussion on the list or B) taking
it to another forum entirely ...
this is technological elitism -- and there is utterly nothing
wrong with that. if you got the skills, use'm to your best advantage
to subvert the dominant paradigm. Isnt that part of the Hacker's
Ethic? The Cyberpunk Code? Promote Decentralization? Information
should be "free" (both definitions)?
This is partly skewed by the fact that the traditional "center"
of the classroom, the instructor (David, and in a lesser sense,
me) simply isn't taking part in the decision. At noe time has
either of us said "You may not have a newsgroup" or
"We will move from list to newsgroup" or anything in
between. So what happens (from my perspective) is not a de-centering
(democtratization or anacrchy) but a re-centering (from traditional
teacher-centered control to leadership by the technoligcal elite.
Sort of like in _Neuromancer_ ...
or is it?
is it different somehow? Many hows?
Devil's advocating (or not),
mick@rpi
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Jester <gentrj>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:17:58 -0400
> The reason newsgroups have names is so people know where
to look for things.
Well, the thing here is that since everyone knows that the spin-off
newsgroup for this list is rpi.union.electronics (or whatever
it is), they don't have to go searching for it, right? And since
no one else has posted to that group for an excessively long time,
obviously they don't go searching for it either. Like i said,
historically, the way things are found to be problems is if someone
views their "personal space" being infringed and reports
it to a higher authority. Kind of like one of the 17th century
philosophs (the exact one eludes me ... locke?) who stated that
government should have no authority except to step in when someone
infringed upon the rights of another - but until that point, everyone
had the right to do whatever they pleased. I contend that since
no one seems to be using this newsgroup, there is no one who is
having their rights infringed upon. Thus, we have the ultimate
right to do as we please. If/When someone from the electronics
club feels that their rights are being infringed upon, then it
becomes inherently wrong for us to use their group.
> Now why don't we just settle the arguement with we disagree and move onto
> discussions of class material.
That would be cool if the issue was resolved, but there still
seems to be content as to the validity of the newsgroup. Also,
I didn't see you putting up any class-related ideas in that last
message there, champ. not that i'm putting up any right now either,
but i'm not trying to take the moral higher ground. i'm just slinging
mud and loving it.
j
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Mick Doherty <doherm>
Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:42:10 -0400
> putting up any class-related ideas in that last message there,
champ
i guess i disagree with this premise. seems to me we're talking
in class about virtual technologies and communications, and the
effect of technology on social systems and power structures.
we're reading about it in the fiction. were *doing* it here online.
it's already apparent that a select few in the class -- those
most experieinced with and/or most comfortabe with the technology
are either A) leading the discussion on the list or B) taking
it to another forum entirely ...
this is technological elitism -- and there is utterly nothing
wrong with that. if you got the skills, use'm to your best advantage
to subvert the dominant paradigm. Isnt that part of the Hacker's
Ethic? The Cyberpunk Code? Promote Decentralization? Information
should be "free" (both definitions)?
This is partly skewed by the fact that the traditional "center"
of the classroom, the instructor (David, and in a lesser sense,
me) simply isn't taking part in the decision. At noe time has
either of us said "You may not have a newsgroup" or
"We will move from list to newsgroup" or anything in
between. So what happens (from my perspective) is not a de-centering
(democtratization or anacrchy) but a re-centering (from traditional
teacher-centered control to leadership by the technoligcal elite.
Sort of like in _Neuromancer_ ...
or is it?
is it different somehow? Many hows?
Devil's advocating (or not),
mick@rpi
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
David Porush <porusd@rpi.edu>
Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:13 -0400
At 4:24 PM 9/11/96, Mick Doherty wrote:
Mick is definitely right about the Net NOT being free., except
you all are not subsidizing faculty e-mail usage, except insofar
as 80% of the university's operating budget comes out of your
tuition in general.
They just keep faculty salaries reduced to cover the cost.
(-:
dp
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Brian Mardirosian <mardib@rpi.edu>
Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:47:57 -0400
Let those that can't make the grade have
>the web and the other cheesy things ... that's all mind candy anyway.
>but don't ruin the rest of the place for us.
> On the other hand ... All those big graphics that the "little
>people" (to be pejorative) load up really slows down the backbones.
>Maybe it is just me, but despite us having a T3 here rather then the T1
>we had back when I was a freshman, everything seems a lot slower. There
>is a lot more in the way of "net lag" over "site lag" on anything you
>connect to. Oh well. I suppose we'll just have to deal.
> Then again, there is my very theoretical idea of having a new
>"internet worm" that would go through and destroy all the hardware for
>every ".com" address in existence. Besides the fact that it could never
>work out, I think its a noble quest. :)
Well, your type of people were the ones that had control of the
Internet for quite some time. What happened? Obviously, you didn't
care enough to stop the commercial rush and buzzword explosion,
or at least guide the move so that it wouldn't interfere with
your activities. The web is still a new environment; TVs weren't
wonderful pieces of technology when they first were released.
Instead of complaining and rolling your eyes at the whoel situation,
get involved.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Brian Mardirosian (518)276-7317
EMAC major, CS minor mardib@rpi.edu
Rensselaer Poly. Inst. http://www.rpi.edu/~mardib
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Rat in the Hat <gentrj@rpi.edu>
Fri, 13 Sep 1996 14:38:06 -0400
> Well, your type of people were the ones that had control of
> the Internet for quite some time. What happened? Obviously, you didn't
J> care enough to stop the commercial rush and buzzword explosion
Hmmm ... well, I think "my kind" of people (what is
this? Northern European mongrels? Americans? Net-Elitists?) ...
tried .- remember the big todo about AOL "getting on the
net" ... I see that as the utter start of the downfall. Imagine
if we lived in a country where only about 1% of the p[opulation
knew how to drive. Now, give keys and a car to the rest of the
population without any sort of training whatsoever, and you get
.... Blood on the Highway! That is akin to what happened. No matter
what the "old fogies" wanted, there were too many people,
too quickly .... once the big corps decided there was money to
be made, a few nerdy computer scientists were going to stop them.
I remember my junior year of high school ... now 5 years removed.
(or is it 6? I forget how to count) ... anyhow, two of my great
loves at the time, computers/net stuff and punk rock were being
invaded by mainstream america. They were being watered down and
rehashed and all that other good stuff. I said to myself then,
"It'll be okay ... 3 years from now people will have moved
on - it can't get any worse then this" .... well, now "alternative
music" is the norm and can refer to just about anyone who
feels the desire, and we have the obvious problem s w/ the net.
Isn't life ironic.
> The web is still a new environment; TVs weren't wonderful pieces of technology
Is the web really what we want though? I don't know about you,
but I don't want mind candy on the net. If I wanted that, I'd
watch tv. I use the net to learn and expand my mind. Looking at
pretty pictures and other stuff is what people who are looking
to be entertained do - but then again, we are the generation raised
on TV. We all want to be entertained.
I wonder ... how visionary Gibson will be. A classmate noted that
Gibson paid too much attention to brand names - "Hitachi
this" "sony that" ... I noted that I always felt
it was to create the mood. The megacorps had taken everything
over. Everything is owned and copyrighted and controlled. Like
the discussion in class about ownership of thoughts .... its getting
bad now (and it can't get any worse, ha) .. imagine what things
will be like 10 years from now if they continue. One thing that
I didn't see noted in his book - perhaps becasue it wasn't as
much of an issue then ... that is the legal system. Right now
it is a joke and getting wore each day. If someone were to break
in my house with the intent to do something bad (generally true
of peopole breaking in), and I were to harm/kill/maim him in the
act, they would be able to sue me for a lot of money - the precedent
has been set already. Too many "frivoulous" law suits
are abound, and in this PC day and age, everyone wins, except
no one really does. I would like to know what Gibson would have
described as the legal system of the day if he had so thought
of it at the time. Or perhaps there isn't one anymore - maybe
the corps have allthe justice under control. Maybe Sony copyrighted
murder, and Aztechnology (for you shadowrun ppl) has exclusive
rights to grand theft.
The web seems too much a tool of the man. Notice there was really
no need for it until mainstream folks came on the net. They need
entertainment from their good shephards. These are the kind of
people who help to allow the sort of distopia found in Gibson's
work, IMO.
j
Jeff Gentry jester@rpi.edu
RPI CompSci Senior http://www.rpi.edu/~gentrj
"Fifty years of programming language research, and we end up with C++."
* Unsolicited advertising will be proofread at the cost of US$5000/hr, *
* 4 hours min. Mailing of such will be taken as acceptance of
these terms. *
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Fri, 13 Sep 1996 19:38:33 GMT
lavalj@rpi.edu (Jean-Eteinne LaVallee)
#ifdef ON_SOAP_BOX
>I remember my junior year of high school ... now 5 years removed.
>(or is it 6? I forget how to count) ... anyhow, two of my great
>loves at the time, computers/net stuff and punk rock were being
>invaded by mainstream america. They were being watered down and
>rehashed and all that other good stuff. I said to myself then, "It'll
>be okay ... 3 years from now people will have moved on - it can't get
>any worse then this" .... well, now "alternative music" is the norm and
>can refer to just about anyone who feels the desire, and we have the
>obvious problem s w/ the net. Isn't life ironic.
This happens to just about anything. It's a function of language really. We like to say certain phrases, the phrase passes through a particular segment of society for some reason or another and soon it gains momentum. For a brief period the phrase is only used by a few people and then people who aren't a part of the originating society pick the phrase up and it becomes the over used norm. Beavis and Butthead, Wayne and Garth, Bill and Ted are all excellent examples of this (my 50 year old, conservative, technical manager, father actually says "kicks ass" to mean "great" and he hates B&B).
This is actually a linguistic meme, or social construct. It happens to everything. And everthing usually falls out of it's meme fascination period. Look at pet-rocks, they're just stones...
The fact that his happened to the net is probably the best thing
that could have happened. Think of the amount of Net tech that
has been developed that benefits the Net community of "old
farts" like you and I, jester. I still get away with some
of the shit I used to do when I had a arpa/internet account that
I "barrowed" from my father. It's just now some of those
activities have greater reprocussions.
>Is the web really what we want though? I don't know about you, but
>I don't want mind candy on the net. If I wanted that, I'd watch tv.
>I use the net to learn and expand my mind. Looking at pretty pictures
>and other stuff is what people who are looking to be entertained do -
>but then again, we are the generation raised on TV. We all want to be
>entertained.
The Net is better than TV. Websurfing is a hell of alot better
than watching TV, you get to choose the info you want to see when
you want to see it. Ever done research paper sourcing on your
TV? How about entering gradschool or applying for a job? Maybe
even playing a game on TV with other living people? I've done
all that in just the past week. The net is a reflection of the
real world, but at the same time it's a subset of the real world.
A subset we can manipulate and shape. It's like Never-Never Land
and Play-Do and a Library all slamming together. And that has
a shit-ton (what ever that is 8^) of potential beyond "sit-click-click-click"
of the TV world.
>I wonder ... how visionary Gibson will be. A classmate noted that
>Gibson paid too much attention to brand names - "Hitachi this"
>"sony that" ... I noted that I always felt it was to create the mood.
>The megacorps had taken everything over. Everything is owned and
>copyrighted and controlled. Like the discussion in class about ownership
>of thoughts .... its getting bad now (and it can't get any worse, ha) ..
>imagine what things will be like 10 years from now if they continue.
I think Gibson saw Cyberspace as a construct of purely corporate influence and failed to notice that educational, private, and government influences would play just as big a role. This is actually understandable given that Neuromancer was written in the mid 80's age of meglo-corps. Look at GE and IBM and Exxon then, they were all huge and the foreign business infrastructure was starting to take a good dig into the world of industry. Sony will be around forever, because they go for every market they can get their technology into.
And it's still pretty similar today, I have a custom computer yeah, but the processor is Intel(c) and the video card is Matrox(c) and the monitor is Sony(c) and the mouse is Logitech(c), etc, etc. Someone has to make the technology, someone has to come up with the standards.
This follows a similar thread I've been watching in a few of the
OS advocacy groups. The big debate is WindowsNT versus UNIX, which
is better? There's alot of WinNT bashing here because it was made
by Microsoft and they're too big an powerful a company to buy
anything from, EVEN IF IT'S BETTER. And there's the arguement
that UNIX is free and was developed by the computer community.
This is true too, but that community took over 25 years to develope
UNIX and it's still full of problems from archane interfaces to
old standard support. WinNT took a third of that time to develope
and serves the needs of everyone from power hungry programmers
to domestic users to first timers. But it was developed for financial
gain and that's obviously bad, no one should make money in this
world...
>One thing that I didn't see noted in his book - perhaps becasue it wasn't
>as much of an issue then ... that is the legal system.
He does brush on this stuff with the Turing Police but it is underdeveloped
and fuzzy, kinda like the InterPOL is today.
>The web seems too much a tool of the man.
Have you been checked out for paranoid schizophrenia? "A
tool of the man"???? Who is oppressing you on the web? check
out our friend boothj's page sometime. Looks like "TheMan"
is leaving him alone.
>Notice there was really no
>need for it until mainstream folks came on the net. They need entertainment
>from their good shephards. These are the kind of people who help to
>allow the sort of distopia found in Gibson's work, IMO.
WHAT!!!!?????? I think corruption is the cause of Gibson's dystopia. Not the innundation of the masses into the Net. And what good shepard has given them their entertainment? Mark Andressen? NCSA's Mosaic development group? Yeah, those turds are "TheMan." I knew it. Geeks controlling everything, we're in trouble. Bring me back the beaurocrats and neophites of the FCC, these geeks are opressing me with their web technology.
CORRUPTION. The second oldest form of employment. And this has been going on for a long time on the Net. My dad tracks telephone phreaks and net service hackers. He's been doing it for over ten years. The types of guys who use C64's with 300 baud modems soldered to the joystick ports as a means to STEAL telephone service. So you and I can pay extra for it. And not just that, there's a reason credit card interest is 16% and it has nothing to do with "TheMan" trying to get more money out of us. THAT's where the dystopia in Neuromancer came from, just like the dystopia in westerns comes from. Always about the Billy the Kid's of the world trying to steal from a bank. It's the same idea. Neuromancer is actually very much a western style story. Case is a "cowboy" who works the illegal side of the data software world.
Corruption will be anywhere. The net had it before the mainstream
folks hit and their arrival really hasn't done much to the occurance
of it other than provide for more victims.
#endif
l8r,
Etienne
/__ /\ / ___/ /\ / |\/ __ /\ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
\ / / / /\ / / / /| |/ /\/ / / Jean-Etienne LaVallee /
/ / / __// / / / / / / / / / reply to: lavalj@rpi.edu /
/ / / /\ / / / / / / / / / / lavalle@cat.rpi.edu /
/____/____/_____/_____/_____/ / http://www.rpi.edu/~lavalj /
\ \ \ \ \ \ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I'm a limitless person living in a sadly limited world." - H.E.Ellison, "Levendis"
"All we are waiting for is something worth waiting for." - KMFDM, "DOGMA"
"I beat my machine, it's a part of me, it's inside of me." - NIN, "the becoming"
"Christmas IS carnage!!!" - Ferdinand the Duck, _Babe_
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Tony Bartling <bartla@rpi.edu>
Sun, 15 Sep 1996 06:54:44 -0400
Listen, guys, I hate to be a jerk here, since this _is_ an open
forum, but it also is an open forum with a direct relationship
to a class. As much as Prof. Porush loves to go on tangents in
class, I don't think that it is necessary to this degree in the
mailing list/newsgroup/whatever happens. I mean, let's face it:
it's just plain annoying to get 70 messages every time you check
your e-mail.
Sorry to whine,
--Tony
Re: Ender's Game and Newsgroup
Rat in the Hat <gentrj>
Sun, 15 Sep 1996 14:51 -0400
> EVEN IF IT'S BETTER.
Well, you'd havea good arguement, Etienne, if Microsoft could
ever make something that actually was better then UNIX. Write
back to me when they have. I got NT 4.0 and it still does not
compare to a good ride through a UNIX box. Ahhhh the joy. Of course,
I've never been big on GUIs, and I never liked the Mac (and therefore
the MS) GUI much, so it has a big downer going for it in my book
off the top.
> He does brush on this stuff with the Turing Police but it is
For once, I must agree w/ Mr. Payne ... I think that one point
that Gibby was trying to make was that unless you screw w/ the
corps somehow (which would bring their own hired guns, the Turing
Police,etc) ... you're pretty much on your own. Its a dark future,
boyz and girlz.
> Have you been checked out for paranoid schizophrenia?
No, i'm afraid of the results. :)
> check out our friend boothj's page sometime. Looks like "TheMan" is
leaving him
> alone
(doh, sorry about the >80 column there) ... I don't really
want to tell stories that Mr. Booth may not want public, but suffice
it to say that his page was oppressed by "the man" ...
several men, actually, wait no, that was .... i sense a great
disturbance in the forcse.
> Re: corruption vs. the unwashed masses getting on the net
You are right about Corruption, Etienne. But in the case of the
net, I contend that this is a chicken/egg thing. The unwashed
masses getting on gave the power to the geeks in charge, and thus
brought the ability for corruption to ensue.
In this case, (pardon the pun), i'm referring to the big corporations
(who thus have world governments in their pockets), as "the
man" ... not necessarily, say, the US Gov't. I mean, come
on ... do you really think that the reason private en cryption
was close to being banned has to do with Terrorism? Do you really
thnk that there is enough "porn" on the net to steal
away our kids to prostitution or something? Of course not. But
they are good ways for those w/ power to pass laws to keep those
out of power further out. haves and have nots. That is the root
of so many wars throughout history it is not even funny. The other
biggie is nationalism, but that doesn't really apply here.
Sure phreaks were stealing phone service, and kids were logging
on to the highspeed university machines (1200 baud! woohoo!) illegally
... But, as you've noted - this thing has always gone on. Granted,
an arguement could be made (and i'd prolly agree) that today's
society is a distopia - but, most would say that we're doing fine.
Therefore, something greater must have gone on to change that.
Look at all the big "cesspools" of countries - Russia
in the early 20th century, Germany a few years later, France at
the end of the 18th century .... were those situations caused
by peasents stealing bread from the nobles - thus making bread
more expensive? No, they were caused by the nobles (in Germany's
case, the nobles are the WWI allies) not giving any bread at all
to the peasants, thus forcing them to steal until they got soo
pissed off that they had to overthrow.
Corruption on the part of the "little people" is only
going to be around when the "big people" do not satisfy
their needs. Corruption on the part of the "big people"
will always be around (power corrupts ...), and thus the needs
of the "little poeple" will never be met, and thus,
there will always be corruption across the board.
j
